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8/30/09
Aug 31, 2009 9:31:22 GMT -5
Post by caboose on Aug 31, 2009 9:31:22 GMT -5
Post up, mine coming after homework is done. Shane
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8/30/09
Aug 31, 2009 11:22:30 GMT -5
Post by Shampoo on Aug 31, 2009 11:22:30 GMT -5
Tan Kilo-1: Force Recon/QRF
Missions: Capture enemy CO/Escort to LZ and hold for 45m Gather enemy intelligence
Execute: Initial plan: provide PSD for our CO while main unit moves to accomplish objectives Actual plan: Kilo unit was to meet up with CO after planting enemy intel for gameplay. Kilo then moved in on OPFOR flanks to clear an area as contact started before RNDVZ with Company CO. After, regrouped with main force and went for the intel. The thought was to protect Company CO with main force, while keeping a small PSD for him as he stayed within support range, but out of harms way of the main force as it moved to complete missions. Kilo moved to our intel point at Smuggler's point. Received light contacts and Kilo went down. Moved to respawn at Respawn COMMON. Moved back to perform flanking maneuver and came in contact with friendly unit (Nick K) whose weapon was down. Utilized him as a recon/diversionary unit while Kilo1 and 2 went far around to come in on OPFOR rear. Kilo unit secured enemy intel and then egressed the area to RNDVZ with main force and command. Command and main force had holed up in a position south and east of Taco by the base of Connor's point. Received light OPFOR contact, action was employed to move towards Pallet Shack with Company CO in field and rear. Kilo unit and main force moved forward to clear the forward AO, received light to medium contacts that escalated into OPFOR main force, heavy contacts. Company was eventually eliminated after killing most of the OPFOR main force and our Objective (enemy CO). Our CO went in on a flank to provide some security and keep himself out of harm's way. Game called at this point.
AAR: I think tan's comms were effective and pleasing. While commo protocols need to be discussed, and further improved, there was little to no unnecessary chatter on the air and good information was passed in most transmissions. Biggest issue with comms is whispering. Nobody can hear or understand whispers, most of the time, on the radio, and while it may sometimes be a necessary action, if it is not critical, it is best advised to avoid. Additionally, to and from's would be nice. Many a time I heard comms that I was asking myself - "Who the hell was that for? and from?" I think the map names helped us out a lot in identifying areas, and I think, with the other captain's go-ahead, that we should continue to utilize these names and maps as they demonstrated their effectiveness at this game. The Respawn COMMON worked out well, and we would like to continue the adoption process of this structure. It lent a less-strenuous option for both team's respawns. Evidently information passing was an issue for the Greens. We will make sure that the objectives are typed out and written down in the future.
Overall, it was a good game. I know there were a few complaints about "scavenger hunting" and not enough action, but these games focus on intelligence, and outsmarting the OPFOR, as well as the thought that this game would be with KCAC, and we haven't explored a lot of the field, so we didn't want the "home field advantage" issue running around. Good actions on both sides, I saw a lot of good stuff from both teams. I am please with Tan's performance.
On a related note - thanks to the new guys who came out - you guys did awesome and we hope to see you again soon.
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8/30/09
Aug 31, 2009 11:31:01 GMT -5
Post by njmt42 on Aug 31, 2009 11:31:01 GMT -5
Nick Massmann, Green team Bravo 1-1, later CO.
We started off with bad intel. We had good intel on the location of the ammo can, as well as our insertion point and respawn, but had little or no intel on the shared respawn or the fact that the ammo can intel was actually intel (paper inside).
Scenario-wise, we were ordered to just get in the middle and be a nuisance. Props to Tan for what was quite possibly the most beautiful ambush I've ever seen. We respawned and orders had still not changed. I felt like we were totally separated from Alpha, who was causing trouble on the east (I think). We were not coordinating with them and all of the enemy seemed to be near them. We wandered around a little while longer, hoping to get a call for support from CO for Alpha, but instead were called back south to crack creek, awaiting Alpha's return. Turned out Alpha wasn't coming. Valuable time was lost in the confusion as we secured the area and waited, but fortunately not too long after, it was realized that Alpha wanted our support near the draw. We rushed across the pony field and over the stonewall. Shane had to leave, so he appointed me CO. I had a fireteam on the downslope of the hill moving north to the draw, and Shane was leading a fireteam on top of the hill. Brent and John (Alpha) secured the hilltop just south of the draw, so all green rallied on their location.
I took a small squad around the back (to the northeast) and Brent/John took the larger squad straight in. We met little resistance (Rome) and freely walked in after Brent/John and company secured the draw. We took some fire from the north after I sent Wayne, Logan, and Kyle to secure the hill and watch for flankers. Fortunately all was not lost, as John popped some well-placed rounds on the flanker.
Wayne spotted the intel (ammo can) in the field and snagged it. We took it West through the creek and then south along the road. I stashed it up on the insertion hill and we headed back down to snatch Simey. We met heavy resistance in the creek south of the pallet shack, where we finally got some trigger time.
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8/30/09
Aug 31, 2009 12:40:57 GMT -5
Post by cutlasslord on Aug 31, 2009 12:40:57 GMT -5
I'd like to say props to Tan for the comms. There was only twice when I thought to my self "why did they really need to say that over the radios? It doesn't matter!" Greg is right. We do all need to work on speaker identification and intended target identification when using comms. I am as guilty of this as anyone else but we do all need to make a conscious effort to rectify that just to make our comms that much more fluid. As far as the scenario, I would have liked a little more trigger time. I only was in 1.5 firefights, the .5 being the initial ambush. Again, tan team, MASSIVE props for that. Fantastic job picking targets within your sector and even more fantastic job holding your trigger. We didn't have the best hiding spot on earth but we all remained calm and waited for the right moment. Again, on that initial ambush incredible job Tans. Most of the game I was with Simey. Many of you are probably wondering why I just stood behind that same tree the whole time letting you all shoot at me in Blood Gulch... I was pretty much being cannon fodder. I figured if you were shooting at me, it might give Simey a chance to escape and that's exactly what happened. I was unsure that he was gonna make it out but he did. The rendezvous took a little longer than I had hoped. Then I asked for a location and got map coordinates but was pretty unsure about them because my radio's battery was dead enough that I couldn 't raise them again for them to "repeat". PLEASE when you give map coordinates make sure to speak very clearly or even to say them twice in your initial broadcast especially since we have no way to write them down on the field. But Ben and I did manage to find our way back. After a while we were ambushed by Brent while sitting in the south east corner the Taco area along that rock wall. Great response to that guys. I'm not real sure how he snuck up on us but great job getting to cover and returning fire in a very timely fashion. After that, I was with Simey once again with execution orders (which I unfortunately never got to carry out. We went and stood in the open field directly across from Crack Crossing hoping Green would send in a massive force to take Simey. Unfortunately this never happened so we flanked around to engage during that final firefight but the game was called before we got in range. I really wanted to shoot Simey in the back but alas... I didn't get to team kill. Simey and I kinda co-CO'd the "MVP squad". I'd really like to give props to him and Rob. As a squad, we were fairly hard to find I think. There was only once where Simey was really in a firefight to speak of. While we do like shooting greens, I was impressed. We stayed mobile most of the game while managing to keep contact with green contingencies without ever being spotted until the Battle of Blood Gulch.
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8/30/09
Aug 31, 2009 13:11:12 GMT -5
Post by brent on Aug 31, 2009 13:11:12 GMT -5
Few problems that I saw.
-My team really didn't know their mission going out.
-We didn't know there was anything IN the ammo box.
-All 3 mission planning captains were on one team (I understand that the captains felt this was necessary for team balance but it made it so green team had no way to ask questions without hoping over to Tans Comms.)
-Green team should have been able to hide the ammo box is a wider area. What I mean is that Tan team knew the general location (down to about 100 ft) of green's ammo box but green only knew that tans ammo box was somewhere around the valley.
-3 engagement range issues were brought to my attention (1 was my fault. sry Doc, I thought my rifle was on semi but it somehow got bumped, just glad i was aiming for your chest rig. I didn't walk off the distance but I was close to my engagement range.).
-Still not completely sure what we were supposed to do with enemy CO once we captured (never got to this point) him. Some said we were to take him and enemy ammo box back to Insertion point while others said we were to find coords in the enemy ammo can to bring the enemy CO to. Still unclear.
-3 members of Green had to leave in the middle of a firefight (I understand that they had to leave, but perhaps in later games we could distribute them among both teams).
Game lacked a lot of trigger time at the beginning although I am NOT complaining at all. I feel that recon work is just as cool and critical as shooting. GREAT firefight at the end. I feel my team did very well, although we seemed to get surprised a couple times because we weren't watching out corners.
I guess this game ended up a tie because both teams retrieved enemy intel and DID NOT gain control of enemy CO. Green had some pretty bad comms at the beginning. A lot of unnecessary chatter was going on. A lot of people saying things such as, "the enemy is on my right." Some hot mic'ing issues.
Few suggestions (take 'em or leave 'em) -Uniforms. I really think things would be a lot better if people would stick to their pants/shirt/hat ALL conforming to their teams color. If you are green then you can pretty much wear any dark color. If you are tan you an pretty much wear any light color. ACU pants with a black shirt is not a good idea. If I can only see your top half, then I will assume you are Green Team. I just don't know why people have a hard time with this. This is not just from this game but from the last few I have attended. I feel this is critical especially with the new faces that are around. -Hot Mic'ing. If you hot mic you render the entire radio net useless for your team. If you continue to hot-mic you need to unplug your radio from the headset and then find another solution. Think of the rest of your team. Figure out another place to put your radio or mic for the next game.
I know this seemed like a lot of Ranting but I just wanted to point out the concerns that I had.
edit we also had no idea that you had to hold enemy CO for 45 minutes. Infact I think we were told that once we get him there we were done.
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8/30/09
Aug 31, 2009 17:16:15 GMT -5
Post by Shampoo on Aug 31, 2009 17:16:15 GMT -5
Like I said, next time we'll print out verbatim what the objectives are to facilitate WARNORDS and such. We thought the scenario was pretty straightforward and didn't feel the need to have a TC on the other team since they may have been out of balance. It's never a problem to hop over comms as long as it's for a legit question.
To clarify - the objectives were to retrieve ammo can with intel inside. Capture enemy CO and take him to YOUR LZ=Insertion for 45 mins hold time to win. The intel was in the event that your CO was captured, you'd then have an Idea of where the enemy was going.
Smuggler's point is pretty big, and it took us a little while to find it, I left the Green's ammo can in the open. It really didn't seem to be an issue to me, if there was any number in a skirmish line, it shouldn't have taken more than a few minutes to spot, despite the area circled, but Noted for future anyway. It's just hard for us to mark Grid Coords and then follow them to the T. I'm not sure how many know how to triangulate points, but by the time you're done w/ that, it may have been a wash, but who knows for certain. We know for next time to be more precise. On a related note, if the army busts in a building, I'd assume they generally don't know for certain the exact point of the enemy intel, so maybe we just need to restrict the areas to a grid designation of an AO to place it in.
I was unaware of any engagement range issues - Tom-Tank? did you guys know? This is the stuff that we need to be told on-field in order to deal with the situation effectively and unbiased (for future reference of all).
As far as uniforms go... If we go this route, I think we need to stop the Irene loads and enforce stricter contractor loads as well.
Please to all, if you have a mic with a VOX option, don't use it. And if you're telling me that you're reloading over the radio, you need to stop, and re-evaluate what's important in comms. Knowing what and how to say what you want is just as important as knowing what NOT to say over the radio.
Things to NOT say over the radio, unless it's critical: When you're moving tree to tree. When you're reloading (I don't ever care) If you're going to respawn because you died (dead men don't talk) "Um" - spit it out, ya'll, we're all guilty.
Things TO say If you've got contacts, how many, and what kind of weaponry (Heavy, Light, Medium) If you need to RNDVZ, with whom, and where
Prioritize chatter guys, if someone's got contact, I'd rather hear about that than if you're in a creek walking back to respawn.
Thanks for the feedback tho guys, it's all appreciated and needs to be considered. Keep it coming.
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8/30/09
Aug 31, 2009 21:34:57 GMT -5
Post by caboose on Aug 31, 2009 21:34:57 GMT -5
Allright, well, I'm not going to make a huge post out of this, as I think the game has been covered pretty much in full by others. What I am going to do is go over some of the issues I saw and make a request. Brent, most of the information that you refer to, was never given to me, I relayed all I knew. As far as team movements and radio go, I wanted to split us into two groups, but I was persuaded to go with a recon group and then another squad split into two fireteams, which I thought made movement and comms more complicated than necessary. However, it did mean less of us got caught in the ambush, so I guess no harm no foul. After the ambush I made the decision to push on to the objective and I had the other teams recon and "cause trouble" for the enemy. Not knowing the field as well as some of the other guys, I feel that I was an extremely ineffective CO. Which brings me to my request. I know we all want to have fun, and I realize that many of the officers hate being CO, because they've done it a million times. However, I do not agree with putting someone who is directionally challenged, unfamiliar with the field, and generally inept at commanding other troops in command. I will do it if you guys insist, but I believe other people would have more fun if I was not CO. Half of the complaints you see above refer to me. As far as comms go, Green was fragmented, so we had a lot of rendezvous speech, and usually fire teams were out of ear reach as well because we were spread thin near the objective, and so there was a lot of chatter. Again, a more effective CO could have developed a better plan that would have removed this confusion. So in parting, I want to apologize to all on Green, I do ok when I'm a squad member, but I don't think I'm cut out for field command.
Shane
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8/30/09
Aug 31, 2009 23:24:09 GMT -5
Post by njmt42 on Aug 31, 2009 23:24:09 GMT -5
I agree, at least somewhat, with Shane. CO'ing isn't for everyone, and that's fine. It's not a requirement (not yet, at least) to be CO to participate with KSUAT, but it is nice to give everyone a shot at it.
Here is the problem:
1.)Most senior members have CO'ed more times than they appreciate, and enjoy being a "grunt" whenever possible.
However, they have the most experience and tend to expect the CO, whoever it is, to do as well.
2.)Most new members are inexperienced and, frankly, intimidated at leading a group of doods with guns into battle, with senior member expectations of success.
I love winning, don't get me wrong, but maybe I could use an attitude check when airsofting, too. Perhaps I should be more willing to let new CO's learn from their mistakes and blindly (well, not entirely) following their orders. I think it would make for less stressful matches, although with worse strategic value.
I don't know, it's kind of down to values. Is KSUAT more into helping others get up to speed, or more into keeping an elite group of senior members at the top of their game? Interesting predicament.
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8/30/09
Aug 31, 2009 23:24:50 GMT -5
Post by brent on Aug 31, 2009 23:24:50 GMT -5
Shane, everyone sucked at Command in the beginning. Believe me, Commanding IS a skill you want to gain. I suggest that you try it. I know it isn't as much fun but you will get better and better. Think of it this way. You never really learn from your successes. You learn the most from your failures. You will learn very quickly.
Greg, regarding the IRENE uniforms. I felt it was ok, like in John and my case, because we were wearing dark shirts. Dark colors go with green. However if you guys think it would be better I would GLADLY give up my plaid blue Irene shirt if it meant everyone would adhear to color designations. And please don't think I am saying everyone needs to wear something specific. I just suggest that you not mix 2 colors that belong to the 2 different teams (ie: light colors and dark colors). If you want to wear ACU pants and a light colored shirt that is cool. Just don't wear Green pants and a Tan shirt. Only confusing in my opinion.
Captains, I will PM you guys with the Engagement Issues that I was told (witnessed).
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8/30/09
Aug 31, 2009 23:52:02 GMT -5
Post by Shampoo on Aug 31, 2009 23:52:02 GMT -5
No worries, Brent, it's all squared away... After Irene is done will be the next game I play at, and probably everyone else, unless we can get a field straight for this weekend, so afterwards, we can start cracking down on uniforms.
What we, as captains, generally feel is that yes, we are experienced with COing. Yes, we've done it many times, and like being grunts, and yes, we do put others in charge who don't have as much COing experience, but here's what's up. Us captains are leaving soon. Who then is going to CO? Why not have others CO now, when we're here and can give direction to the troops and CO's as Tommy did this weekend? That way, when we're gone, we can continue KSUAT's badass tradition when we go other places. It's not that we want to push people who are uncomfortable with COing into the fray, but we do want people to get a taste for it, and become better at it. What happens if we're out on the field and you don't get an order because your CO is dead? In the absence of orders, TAKE CHARGE! We want everyone to be comfortable with this, and I personally feel that it makes you a better operative, when you have seen the other side of the battle, and know the mistakes you DON'T want your troops to make: Don't get pulled in there, Don't get flanked from there, Use this terrain feature to your advantage, Don't get funneled at this linear danger zone etc.etc. While I understand the frustration, I ask that we all remember that while there are other schools of thought, I think most of us are here to get everyone up to speed and help out the new generation. If we only thought of ourselves, when we're gone, who else will there be to continue our traditions? our good name? It is a game, and while the immediate objective may be to win the games, our mission is to preserve the team, and the name of airsoft. If I go out with a new CO that leads me to my death every time, as long as he's learning from his mistakes, and making new ones instead of old ones, I'll be just as happy as if I went out and led my team to victory every time (which'd never happen).
Lets all check our egos and 'tudes, including me, and remember that we're here to help, in airsoft, and in everything else.
Bottom line: Shane, you did fine, we just have processes to refine. Brian, you too. Everyone did awesome and it was fun, I hope the new guys come out again.
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8/30/09
Sept 1, 2009 0:22:58 GMT -5
Post by clearance66 on Sept 1, 2009 0:22:58 GMT -5
Green Team Alpha 2
The game went pretty well. Shane, the CO thing takes time. Don't get discouraged. It took a number of games just to get used to the idea that you are in charge and you really have to project that. When I was a captain it was our job to both CO and plan the missions so we got better at it. Believe me, I was pretty bad at it. It is only recently that the COs have been from the rest of KSUAT. We did do that whenever we hid something or had some sort of supposedly "secret" objective. Shane the key is to give general directions and your NCO's (squad leads) in this case Brent, Nick and Wayne.
As far as the scenario was concerned pretty much everything has been said. I didn't know anything about this holding the enemy CO for 45 minutes thing. I like the idea of writing or typing out the OP orders.
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tommyg
Airsofter
Killswitch Engaged
Posts: 483
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8/30/09
Sept 1, 2009 1:22:00 GMT -5
Post by tommyg on Sept 1, 2009 1:22:00 GMT -5
I appreciate the discussion that this thread has initiated. First, engagement ranges have been brought to officers' attention and will be summarily dealt with.
Just wanted to reiterate that almost no one is naturally a great CO. It takes quite a bit of experience to be able to command even a few people with great effectiveness. Becoming an effective CO is a matter of learning to overcome your doubts in ambiguous situations, and respond as quickly as possible with the best possible solution as you see it. That ability only comes with practice. Assertiveness requires experience.
That said, I think a more worthwhile strategy would be to employ our newer members as fire team leaders, guided by a veteran CO. I feel that when we have inexperienced CO's designating veteran squad leads, the veterans seem to seize control to a degree contrary to the chain of command. I was guilty this Sunday, occasionally directing our command unit. Commanding a fire team would allow newer members to develop leadership ability without overwhelming them prohibitively.
I'm extremely proud of our newer members, and I feel like they are developing into excellent airsoft players very quickly. Once again, thanks for all input.
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8/30/09
Sept 1, 2009 9:26:43 GMT -5
Post by brent on Sept 1, 2009 9:26:43 GMT -5
Tommy, I think putting the newer guys in a squad lead position is a great idea. So they can be in a position of authority but not have the burden of the entire team on them. Jolly good thinking.
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8/30/09
Sept 1, 2009 10:33:25 GMT -5
Post by starfox on Sept 1, 2009 10:33:25 GMT -5
weeee sounds like a fun game on sunday sorry i wasnt out ive got broncitis or something causing me to randomly cough up green goo and collapse in exaustion...it sucks but hopefully ill be out sometime soon
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8/30/09
Sept 1, 2009 10:47:24 GMT -5
Post by caboose on Sept 1, 2009 10:47:24 GMT -5
Well I appreciate the support from you guys, and I do feel more comfortable leading a squad or fire team rather than being a CO. The main problem right now for me is I don't know where the heck I am on the field. When we went to OP Phoenix I knew where I was, I had a good idea of what needed to be done, so I grabbed some guys and we did it. However, in the wooded terrain I can't see landmarks, I know some spots really well, but outside of those areas I don't know where anything is, so there's that hesitation in orders as well as confusion when squads separate and I'm not sure where everyone is in relation to me. For example, if we were to have another game at the crossroad area where we had a blindman issue, I know that area, I know Taco, but I had never been in that field with the horses, at least to the best of my knowledge. This field is so big, I just am not sure of where everything is and I don't know all you guy's names for everything. So that's the main problem for me, so if I can lead fireteams with someone that knows where everything is, that'll give me opportunity to learn my way around. I've only played on this field a handful of times, and everything looks different when it's overgrown.
Shane
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